Monday, December 22, 2008

Rick Warren Controversy + Gay marraige.

Okay... I admittedly don't know a whole lot about him. I know that he's an evangelical minester. I don't tend to agree with Evangelicals on anything. I know that he's raised money for HIV/Aids. I know that he was a supporter of Proposition 8, and doesn't take kindly to homosexuals.

I am one of the biggest supporter of gay/lesbian rights. I feel strongly that they should have marraige rights, and all else that the average white, straight person should have. So, Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin. That's fine... so don't allow church marraiges. But, they absolutely should be able to have a state marriage. Esp since there is supposed to separation of church and state.

Now, onto the fact that Obama has asked Rick Warren to do the invocation at Inauguration. I can totally understand why the G/L community would be upset. However, this is what is so good about Obama. He has always vowed to listen to other viewpoints. To disagree without being disagreeable. Obama hasn't sold out the gay/lesbian community... it's better to try to find the things that we can work ont together. He probably won't draft any sort of legislation re: gay/lesbian rights with this guy.... but certainly there are things that they can work on together...


cynthiaa said...

Reasons why I love Obama: This. This. This.


Have been missing your posts!!

patrick said...

Oh why is the homosexual community getting their leather in a knot? Obama is also having a gay band or something at his inauguration along with the conservative preacher.

Monkey Girl said...

As a big gay rights supporter (any minority rights, really) I can see why it would be more than a bit offensive. I'm trying to have an open mind really, but I'll keep my suspicions to myself and let Obama try to work with 'these' people. Anyone who supports denying equal rights from any person, man, woman, child, etc...isn't someone I want talking in our President's ear.

Oh, and thanks Patrick, once again subtly offending the gays(any minority really). Predictable once again.

patrick said...


But the "gays" can offend whomever they want?!

Monkey Girl said...

What's wrong Patrick?

Are 'the gays' making fun of you again?

patrick said...

LOL Monkey! Not at all but you have gotten your self all worked up because some folks are not happy with a SPEAKER? Please give us a break!

Now you still have not answered my question...gays can offend whomever they want and that is ok?

Jen said...

Exactly who are the gays offending and how?

-or do you mean the idea of gay marraige offends you?

patrick said...

Lets see Folsom Street Fair offends people--homosexual "marriage" offends people--homosexual acts and attempting to teach minors that these things are moral and acceptable offends people ....

the list is numerous Jen

So once again homosexuals (active practicing ones) can offend people but heterosexuals that do not agree with the "homosexual agenda" and voice those opinions are offensive but not the other way around??

Last I checked Freedom of Speech is everyones right, please correct me if I am mistaken. what I am not understanding is why the homosexuals are so upset with Obama's choice of speech giver? Is he not allowing homosexuals to participate in any inauguration events--of course not ! They are just upset because they don't like the idea of someone having a differing opinion then theirs--oh well that is one of the great things about this country--we dont all have to agree!!

Jen said...

I don't even know where to start.

The fact that you assume that just because someone is homosexual... means that they are into kinky things and/or going to taint children is ludicrous.

So, just because "some" people are offended by one thing... it should be outlawed?? That's very egotistical of you to think that we should all change our ways to accomodate what YOU think is right.

Hey, I'm not into S&M, but if someone wants to do that in the privacy of their home... I could care less.

It's called tolerance to other beliefs.. you should practice that sometime.

patrick said...

In the privacy of their own homes, homes being the key part! Folsom is not in peoples homes it is in the Streets (PUBLIC) where all can see even little kids! That is way beyond acceptable IMHO!

Tolerate does not equate to accept Jen :-)

patrick said...

Sodomy is not something I teach my kids, sorry Jen. But homosexuals in CA and other states and countries are pushing and getting their garbage into PS for kids as young as 5 years old to learn about their lifestyle regardless if their family values or morals are for or against it.

patrick said...

It's called tolerance to other beliefs.. you should practice that sometime.

pass that on to your homosexual friends that are upset over Obama's choice for speech giver :-) Their tolerance is non-existent in this matter!

Monkey Girl said...

"Lets see Folsom Street Fair offends people--homosexual "marriage" offends people--homosexual acts and attempting to teach minors that these things are moral and acceptable offends people ...."

Wwwwwwwhhhhhhhaaaaaattttt, are you talking about?

?Folsom Street Fair? Never heard of it. Something you've attended...and subsequently were offended by? As for your last part, I'm not even going to respond to that kind of ridiculous comment.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree Patrick. I don't find gay marriage offensive. I don't find a street fair offensive. If you're so offended by these things then don't go, don't participate.

Like I've said before, I'm honestly confused by you. You spout off hate and say you're offended YET you actively seek out liberal websites and interact with liberals. WHY? Really, Patrick why? If as you say, "these people's" mere existence offends you then why do you seek them out?

When was the last time you even had a conversation with a gay person? Do you even know any?

If you really were as offended as you claim to wouldn't be on these websites, making ignorant comments.

Jen said...

Patrick - Obviously you are talking about the extremes. Most gay people are just walking about the streets and you would never know that they were gay. They live normal lives like me and you.

That street fair.. I had to google it to find out what it was. How come you know so much about it? It's like you purposely try to find out about these things and talk ridiculous about them.

Sodomy.. While it personally does not turn me on.. and I'm not going to teach my 5 year old about it... It's not something I feel should be hush,hush. I'm not offended by it in the least.

There are extremes to every case... Just as in every group.

Jen said...

Oh, one more thing....

I don't waste time worrying about things that don't affect me. It seems like you are obsessed about these things. Perhaps you should ask yourself why you let gay relationships affect you so much. Is everything okay in your life? Because you seem so preoccupied with everyone else's.

patrick said...

actually I do know gay people, they are living the lives that God told them to lead...hence they are not pushing for "gay marriage" nor are they parading around with rainbow banners.

Once again Jen, if you want us to tolerate these extreme homosexuals then perhaps they should learn tolerance of people that are not like them :-)

Oh and monkey girl, in the instance of gay marriage it does effect me...if gay marriage is accepted as the norm then what is stopping polygamy being legal or pedophiles marrying the kids they abuse? when you accept one deviant behavior as normal then it just will open the door for other deviant behavior to be normal...AHH

Jen said...

See, I don't see them as extreme. and I don't see their behavior as deviant.

And... not everyone believes in your god.

Monkey Girl said...

"in the instance of gay marriage it does effect me...if gay marriage is accepted as the norm then what is stopping polygamy being legal or pedophiles marrying the kids they abuse? when you accept one deviant behavior as normal then it just will open the door for other deviant behavior to be normal...AHH"

Ahhhh, that old argument. Way to be predictable. Tell me Patrick, do you have any thoughts or ideas that are your own and not just a regurgitation of some old pastor and his congregation of religious zealots?

How actually do you want gays to tolerate you? Are you being maligned by the gay community? How is the gay community keeping you from equal rights?

Let me explain something to you, Patrick, that maybe you don't understand; your prejudices are based on your religious beliefs. Let me repeat, YOUR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS. Because you believe that God told you to be a bigot.
Our country is SUPPOSED to be run under the separation of church and state. The only people not tolerating, is you and all the other right-wing religious conservatists.

The APA (American Psychiatric Assoc) took homosexuality off the list of deviant behavior over 25 years ago.

Please get with the times, this isn't 1950, anymore.

Our country isn't run by the beliefs of a mainly fictional book written by other religious zealots hundreds of years after the death of their prophet.
It's only been 8 years since Bush was elected into office and yet the conservatives are already trying to rewrite history...their version...of course.

patrick said...

Actually lets look at the definition of BIGOT:
a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own

Ok so based on that definition I am not a bigot. I have no issue with homosexuals just homosexual acts :-) I do not have to tolerate behavior that I find immoral. Should I tolerate the acts of rapists or murderers? Of course not! I am sure that you don't.

Now I see that you have once again not answered my question...shall we try again?!

if gay marriage is accepted as the norm then what is stopping polygamy being legal or pedophiles marrying the kids they abuse?

what say you?

Monkey Girl said...

What say I?

That that's a ridiculous argument used by short sighted bigots.

No one but you and your religious zealots thinks that homosexual acts are deviant therefore your argument doesn't work.
If it's not deviant and the states have removed sodomy laws off the books because it's an outdated law how can you still compare an act of two consensual adults who love each other to criminals and law breakers?

I've answered your questions three different ways, which part aren't you understanding?

And you are a bigot, no one can separate the person from the act. Doing so is an act of unconditional love and I don't believe for a minute that you posses the ability of unconditional love for humankind.
You said even yourself you can't separate the act of the sin and the sinner, i.e. rapist, murderer.

Once again, Patrick comparing gays to pedophiles and polygamists is an old argument. Gays aren't breaking any laws.

patrick said...

They used to be breaking laws monkey girl...but got the laws changed. So what is stopping the polygamist or anyone else from getting the laws changed...nothing!

And nope I am not a bigot...I have many homosexual friends have no issues with know the adage love the sinner hate the sin :-)

Jen said...

Do you find oral sex deviant behavior? Because it seems like you have issues with "sodomy"?

So, these "homosexual" friends of yours must be so lucky to have you. Do they know how you really feel about their behavior?

patrick said...

So, these "homosexual" friends of yours must be so lucky to have you. Do they know how you really feel about their behavior?

LOL! They know how I feel about "homosexual acts" but most of the homosexuals I know and associate with live their lives as they are called to by God (ie. chaste).

Once again Jen, love the sinner hate the sin :-)

Jen said...

Well, oral sex can be a "homosexual act" but perhaps you've even participated in that, who knows. You can't pick and choose.

And since you are born homosexual, that must be what God intended...

patrick said...

Actually there is not proof that you are born a homosexual :-)
Or have they found the elusive "gay gene" recently??

Fisting, oral sex, sodomy, gay rimming, golden showers etc. are all forms of homosexual sexual acts. what is your point Jen?

Jen said...

My point is that they are largely Heterosexual acts too!! So how can you say it's okay for heterosexuals to do it but not gay people? That's hypocritical for you to hate the "sin" -- something that you may have likely done, or that others do....

patrick said...

My point is that they are largely Heterosexual acts too!! So how can you say it's okay for heterosexuals to do it but not gay people? That's hypocritical for you to hate the "sin" -- something that you may have likely done, or that others do....

LOL! you are comparing apples to oranges Jen. Men and woman where made to have sex with each other....that is how their body parts work dear.

Monkey Girl said...

It saddens me to know that there are gays out there that have been guilted by religion, so much so, that they feel they must live a chaste life. You must be thanking your god daily that you weren't born gay.

Patrick, your hypocrisy is staggering. I had know idea you had a straight shot to god's ear. Do you hear him in one ear or two?

Like I've said many many times, why are you here? What is it that you're trying to accomplish? You aren't going to be changing any one's minds on this website. Why stay?

patrick said...


Please show me one shred of scientific evidence that shows people are born gay. since there is no proof of a "gay gene" lets put the "i was born gay" stuff to rest already.

As to being a hypocrite, nah nice try though. Those opposed to homosexual behavior are often charged with "homophobia"—that they hold the position they do because they are "afraid" of homosexuals.
These arguments attempt to stop rational discussion of an issue by shifting the focus to one of the participants. In doing so, they dismiss another person’s arguments based on some real or supposed attribute of the person. In this case, the supposed attribute is a fear of homosexuals.

Like similar attempts to avoid rational discussion of an issue, the homophobia argument completely misses the point. Even if a person were afraid of homosexuals, that would not diminish his arguments against their behavior. The fact that a person is afraid of handguns would not nullify arguments against handguns, nor would the fact that a person might be afraid of handgun control diminish arguments against handgun control.

Furthermore, the homophobia charge rings false. The vast majority of those who oppose homosexual behavior are in no way "afraid" of homosexuals. A disagreement is not the same as a fear. One can disagree with something without fearing it, and the attempt to shut down rational discussion by crying "homophobe!" falls flat. It is an attempt to divert attention from the arguments against one’s position by focusing attention on the one who made the arguments, while trying to claim the moral high ground against him.

So what is the next name your going to call me?! :-)

Jen said...

I'm afraid of handguns.

Jen said...

Patrick.. you never did explain what affect homosexual couples personally have on your marraige?

Also... How come Karin dropped out of discussions alltogether some time ago? You are both from the same area, so I figure you must know each other.. I don't really believe in coincidences.

Jen said...

Patrick - I got your answer and because it was way too long and was just cut and pasted from somewhere I am not going to publish it. If you want to try talking from your heart to answer my question... then I'll consider it.

Monkey Girl said...

Please tell me where in my comment did I say you 'feared' gays?

I'm confused.

I said you were a hypocrite. If that translates to fear of gays, then that's on you, not me.

Let me be clear, you're a hypocrite because the old argument 'hate the sin, love the sinner' is not humanly possible. Only God/Jesus whoever you call on as your higher power is capable of that kind of unconditional love.

You can blather on and on how you disagree, but it's just not possible. If you truly loved the sinner and hated the sin, you'd leave the judgment of those 'sinners' up to God. You're only human, it's not your place to judge their behavior...or so the bible says. Where's your so-called christian compassion?

I'm not to only person here to note that church goers/religious zealots are the biggest bunch of judgmental hypocrites that walk on the face of the earth. Jesus would be so proud. (insert sarcastic laugh here)

patrick said...

Actually Monkey it is possible to love the sinner and hate the sin :-) and yes we are called to speak out against sin. The judgment (of the sinners) is left to God Monkey, I have not condemned them to hell have I?! Nope.

As to being a hypocrite nope nice try Monkey...

Tolerance of sin is not a Christian virtue, at all. Love of persons is. Love is united to truth, and truth requires that we speak honestly and authentically about good and evil, about sin. After Jesus cured the crippled man and later encountered him in the Temple he said to him, "See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse befall you" (John 5:14). After sending away the scribes and Pharisees who had brought to him a woman caught in adultery, alone with the woman Jesus said to her, "Go, and do not sin again" (John 8:11). Jesus consistently rebuked the sins of the people, and never hedged on the truth of man's sin. In Paul's first letter to the Corinthians he tells the people "not to associate with immoral men" (1 Cor 5:9). It is very clear that tolerance of sin is not at all a Christian virtue, despite what many modern Christians would like us to believe. Unfortunately so often today when we point out that something is sinful, when we rebuke the sinner, we are accused of being intolerant. The truth is, we are, as we properly should be. Scripture makes it perfectly clear that sin is not to be tolerated, and that as Christians we owe it to each other in love to correct on another, to rebuke each other when it is necessary, and to encourage one another in our desire to live authentic Christian lives, faithful to the Word of God. A Christian does not believe that however a person chooses to live is none of our business; nor does a Christian believe that a person should feel free to do whatever she or he wants as long as it makes her or him happy. A Christian recognizes that there is but one true way to happiness, and that is through Christ. And being purified in Christ necessarily requires a renunciation of sin, and in order to renounce sin we must admit that sin is real, that evil is real, and we must be able to recognize what it is.We must love the sinner, but we must hate the sin – this is a necessary corollary to, "Love your neighbor as yourself." We must recognize that we are sinners, and love ourselves, but we must hate the sin that is in us. The same is true of our neighbor. We must love our neighbor always, but we must hate the sin that is in them. Hating the sin is necessary if we are to truly love them. If we do not hate our neighbor's sin, we do not love our neighbor at all. If we do not hate our own sin, we do not love ourselves at all.

patrick said...

May I ask why you call homosexuals "gay"?

Gay: cheery: bright and pleasant

From the stats out there on homosexuals they (large majority) are not "gay" by any means, quite the opposite in fact.

Monkey Girl said...

And then the ignoramus said...

'Blah blah blah blah blah'.

Don't quote to me from your fictitious book.

How sad, most of my gay friends are quite happy...and cheerful.

You're starting to bore me, thanks for the daily bickering session, but I'm signing off, it's getting late and I'm tired.

patrick said...

And then the ignoramus said...

You really should not use such terms to describe yourself Monkey :-)

How sad, most of my gay friends are quite happy...and cheerful.

--73% of psychiatrists say homosexuals are less happy than the average person, and of those psychiatrists, 70% say that the unhappiness is NOT due to social stigmatization
( Lief, H. Sexual Survey Number 4: Current Thinking on Homosexuality, Medical Aspects of Human Sexuality, 1977, pp. 110-11)

-25-33% of homosexuals and lesbians are alcoholics ( Kus, R. "Alcoholics Anonymous and Gay America." Medical Journal of Homosexuality, 1987, 14(2), p. 254)

--78% of homosexuals are affected by STDs ( Rueda, E. "The Homosexual Network." Old Greenwich, Conn., The Devin Adair Company, 1982, p. 53)

---50% of suicides can be attributed to homosexuals (Kaifetz, J. "Homosexual Rights Are Concern for Some," Post-Tribune, 18 December 1992)

-- The median age of death of homosexuals is 42 (only 9% live past age 65). This drops to 39 if the cause of death is AIDS. The median age of death of a married heterosexual man is 75 ( Fields, Dr. E. "Is Homosexual Activity Normal?" Marietta, GA)

-- The median age of death of lesbians is 45 (only 24% live past age 65). The median age of death of a married heterosexual woman is 79 (Fields, Dr. E. "Is Homosexual Activity Normal?" Marietta, GA)

Hmm, lots to be "gay" about Monkey.